Steeped in tradition, with a strong academic reputation – is there a case for welcoming a third member to the Oxbridge club?
REANNE MACKENZIE argues that Durham is, and always will be, a wannabe.
The idea of amalgamating Durham, Cambridge, and Oxford into the ugly sounding “Doxbridge” makes me at first laugh, and then feel sick.
Oxford and Cambridge have long been slung together as “Oxbridge”. Yes, we may pretend to hate ‘The Other Place’ but when it comes down to it, we know they are our kindred spirits – they’ve got punts, gowns, bicycles, supervisions and twenty-four hour libraries. We are close enough to have a ski-trip with them, chummy enough to play rugby against them, and if someone says they are from Oxford, we immediately relax: ‘ah, they’re one of us.’
Nowhere in this cosy duo does Durham fit in: this is a monogamous relationship and we aren’t up for a threesome. Durham simply does not have the sheer amount of work, and dare I say it intellect, required at both Oxford and Cambridge. There are no supervisions, no weekly essays, and no (frequent) all-nighters in the library. They may have formals, and substandard clubs, but this does not justify the D in front of Oxbridge. It’s too hilly to ride a bike there and they even have reading weeks.
Yes, they are one of Britain’s top universities, they just aren’t the top. Durham is like the annoying, less good-looking younger brother: similar to the elder, but hasn’t quite got it. If they were really considered to be on the same level as us, surely it would have been Doxbridge from the very beginning but, sadly for them, it wasn’t.
What really must be the most convincing evidence that ‘Doxbridge’ does not exist is that when I first typed it into word, spell checker immediately popped up with a lovely squiggly red line, and asked if I meant ‘Oxbridge’. Says it all really.
Graduation at Durham: not so different?
CHARLIE TAVERNER, Comment Editor of the Durham Palatinate, argues that arrogance is preventing us recognizing ‘Doxbridge’.
Doxbridge isn’t a term to replace Oxbridge, and it’s not to say that Oxford and Cambridge are not in a class of their own. But if you look at the unmistakeable blend of tradition and excellence, something is needed to make these three universities stand out from the rest.
Beyond Doxbridge, few other universities have the collegiate system. If they do, it is neither as steeped in tradition nor such a key aspect of the student experience. Oxford, Cambridge and Durham colleges, barring a few modern builds, are all integral landmarks in the town. From King’s in Cambridge, to Christchurch in Oxford, and University College in Durham’s medieval castle – there’s not much distance in terms of tradition. After all, Durham’s historic bailey is a UNESCO World Heritage site.
You can point to the likes of York, Lancaster and Kent and say that their collegiate system isn’t far off the Durham model, but these new builds don’t have histories and deep-seeded college rivalries stretching back to the nineteenth century and – for Oxford and Cambridge – beyond.
Academic excellence connects all three universities. While the argument that Durham is as good, if not better than Oxbridge, might stick better up here in the north than amongst The Tab’s readership, it is more often for reasons of arrogance than truth. Durham has extremely high standards across the board, and deserves to be in a wider group of three. Rankings tables are always questionable, but particularly in arts and humanities, Durham often forms a triumvirate at the top with Oxford and Cambridge.
Those of us in Durham have a reputation for being a bunch of privileged, chip-on-the-shoulder Oxbridge rejects. However, turning this on its head, it means Durham is full of some incredibly clever and talented people in its own right – even if they failed those fateful interviews.
There’s no denying that Oxbridge is the pinnacle of British education. But Durham’s blend of exceptional people, doing exceptional things in an environment steeped in educational tradition – just like at Oxford and Cambridge – deserves to be recognised by the marker of ‘Doxbridge’.
What do you think? Use the comment board below to share your thoughts.
Oxbridge are the top, no questions. I went to both Oxford and Durham. Durham was by far my favourite. Oxbridge fine without the D. D fine without the Oxbridge.
Doxbridge? I prefer the amalgamation of Durham and Exeter.
Newsflash geeks! York have joined the annual Doxbridge sports frolic in Dublin, which makes it Dorksbridge- let's leave it at that.
Having studied first at Durham then at Cambridge (Post-grad), I can safely say I'm glad I turned down an offer from King's College Cambridge the first time round! Too snooty by far and the interview was a joke!!! Durham suited me better at the time and I loved it. As for academic standards, I think Durham's recent ranking speaks for itself. Not everyone can hope to attain entry to the 'dreaming spires club', nor should they feel stigmatized for being an 'Oxbridge reject'. I applaud the girl who turned down Oxford in today's news!!!
I have never read a bigger load of shit than that girl's letter.
Oh, please. Your smug "inverse" snobbery is greater than any snobbery you would have encountered here. I went to an open day at Durham, and it looked pretty good, but it still wasn't even my second choice.
As a former state-school pupil, I can honestly say I have never felt intimidated by the formality here or by the amount of privately educated students. I wish people like you and the girl who wrote the letter could get your heads out of your own arses long enough to see that Cambridge is the opportunity of a lifetime. Your choice if you decide not to take it, but I'm glad I did.
The girl who "turned down" Oxford is obviously an example of someone that can't take rejection…she applied to the same course the year before at Cambridge and got rejected. Her fate was probably already decided for her so she saved her pride by "rejecting" Oxford, in the knowledge she would get rejected if not. Just another bitter reject, like some of the Durham people on this post.
Isn't Cambridge way better than Oxford? It's always way ahead in the rankings. Durham and Oxford are much closer. Maybe there ought to be a new rank of second-rate universities: Doxford.
Oh my dear sweet god….grow up and be proud we can even have this chat! if you didn't have the good education/ parents to pay for you, we'd all be reading Business at UWE/ the nearest place to a roof over our heads.
You all are so privileged to be even able to have this conversation! Bet you Mary at home studying with the OU for a BA in English Lit has more intelligence than any member of this joke of a commentary.
If you are the first member of your family to get F.E. and went to any of these places, you are incredible and shouldn't be joining the elitest chat that forms the basis of this chat.
If you are having your degree paid for you by mummy and daddy, your opinion holds zero value to this chat. Anybody achieving more than B,B,B at A-Level deserves a good education. Go and see how the other half live.
I am the second in my family to go to university – the first was my brother, also at Cambridge, and I promise you he didn't pay for any fancy school. I have great respect for the OU, especially those who do a degree whilst working full time. But Durham can still fuck off.
do you keep saying chat?
It gets so tiring being told that our places here were bought for us. I went to a state school, I got in to Cambridge because I worked hard and I'm good at what I do.
Mummy and daddy aren't paying for my degree, but even if they were my opinion would still count. Rich people aren't just disqualified from making arguments.
Why do you bet Mary has more intelligence? If she has, why isn't she here? If money is an issue, she could get the £3400 a year bursary open to all Cambridge students. This is more than enough to live on, when combined with a student loan.
To write off everyone's achievements just if their parents were lucky enough to receive F.E. is pathetic inverse snobbery, the sort of bitterness that every Cambridge student sadly needs to get used to. But I suppose going to the best university in the country makes up for that a little.
Cunt.
*I got into Cambridge cos I'm a clever fucker and had to do fuck all at school
So, my "mummy and daddy" are paying for my degree. I consider myself bloody lucky that they put the money away while I was growing up and that they're in a good enough place financially that they can support me. I'm only the second person in my family to go to university, and when I got the chance to come to Cambridge my parents were determined to see me do it without taking out a loan if possible, as coming from working class backgrounds they don't believe in taking out a loan if you can possibly avoid it. They also cover my college bills and all my living costs. I still come from a state school, and I'm far from posh (I'm from northern Scotland, it's about as far from it as you can get). Does that mean I have "zero value"? I think it means I'm incredibly lucky, but it really is about merit here, and I've never once felt it was an issue that my parents pay for me and yet my best friend gets a full bursary.
On the issue of Doxbridge – there's no denying there are very intelligent people at other universities, it's just stupid to disagree. However, Oxford and Cambridge must sit so much higher in the world rankings for a reason – and probably because of the vast numbers of very good applicants they get. That doesn't mean an individual from Cambridge is necessarily any better than an individual from Durham, even one who got rejected, but that Cambridge and Oxford are universities that are really on the world stage, and we're lucky to be here and benefit from that.
Doxbridge is silly…what makes Oxford and Cambridge people arrogant is their supervision/tutorial system…Durham can't join the club until they manage to get the resources to organise a supervision/tutorial system…
Not only is this article entirely unnecessary, it is amateur in its style, and lacking in any kind of fact or real information. What claims do the authors have to any kind of respect for their Meisterwerk?
Who wants to compare ANY two of the three universities anyway?
Redundant, superficial, boring.
The resulting comments merely demonstrate the lack of maturity (and vocabulary) of the readers.
Who needs to be at Oxbridge when Daddy can make one phone call and get you a job?
They should have called it Coxford…
How did I get to this shit from minecraft?!!?
1. Any argument about the proportion of students at Oxbridge that went to private schools meaning that Oxbridge is inherently 'snobby' is stupid. Durham has a much higher proportion of private school students, and, as someone who has many friends there and has visited often, I'd say the place feels much, MUCH more 'public school' than Cambridge, and probably Oxford too.
2. People who don't get into Oxbridge often seem to make arguments about intelligence. 'Oh, I'm just as clever as people who get in to Oxbridge'. Since when were Oxbridge interviews simply measures of intelligence? There is no IQ (or EQ) test as part of the admissions process. Sure, they want clever students who can get the grades, but they also want people who are interested, teachable and hungry for an offer to study there. Intelligence in itself does not a Cambridge student make – nor do excellent A level results. Many people come here for postgraduate study from other universities who were perhaps just as clever aged 18, but hadn't yet developed these traits.
3. In terms of the workload, there is simply no comparison between Durham and Cambridge. For this reason, I simply don't believe that you can assert that a 2:1 at Durham is better than a 2:2 at Cambridge. Far more is required of you in order to achieve even a modest class of degree at Cambridge. That's not to say that there is a difference in ability or intelligence: it is a question of the difficulty involved.
4. Fun – depends what you consider fun to be. In terms of extracurricular stuff like theatre or music there is far more going on in Cambridge, in my experience. In terms of how often you can get totally smashed, Durham blows Cambridge out of the water. But perhaps the willingness to sacrifice immediate short-term fun for a long-term benefit is something that sets Cambridge students apart (even if they don't often have much of a choice)
To be honest I don't think that many people from Durham care about not going / not applying to Oxbridge. Obviously looking at this post there are a few who seem bothered or are just enjoying provoking Cambridge students (always fun).
In my opinion Durham is the perfect balance of being a very well regarded University whilst not being as much of a ball ache as Oxbridge in terms of work. It is significantly better at Sport, and from my experience has a much better social agenda. Finally if you leave here with a half decent degree you won't be working at Tesco.
Depends what you're looking for really. Anyway, I'm off out to Boathouse, enjoy your all nighter in the Library you Oxford elites.
To anyone interested…. at Durham they DO have a supervision/tutorial system the same as Oxbridge, at least my course 20 years ago did, and lectures were not compulsory. The terms are also 8-9 week come to think of it.
At the end of the day, it's what you gain from the experience and what you do with your time there and afterwards that counts! Courses differ a lot from one university to another so certain comparisons are hard to make.
Having both Durham and Cambridge on my CV has opened doors for me – I'm now an English Language lecturer at a good northern Italian University, Trento, which is I suppose the Durham of Italy!
I think in all fairness Durham is at least an equal, and the added historic significance of having a Castle and a CATHEDRAL (in which matriculation takes place, in gowns) is something that is sadly lacking in our institution.
Also, I have been informed that the average science degree in the fine institute known as Durham University requires the student to attend 3 supervisions per week (one more than our scientists, so realistically they have nothing to complain about).
Finally, the varsity link between us and 'the others', which arguably comes to a fruition with the varsity rugby match (bought out by the now high street brand of Jack Wills) and the boat race, are sadly undermined by both of the Oxbridge universities results againt the Northern version (both losing heavily for the past two years in both disciplines).
Overall, I believe that we should open are arms (and hearts) to our Northern brothers, and be proud to be the suffix of DOXBRIDGE!
"Also, I have been informed that the average science degree in the fine institute known as Durham University requires the student to attend 3 supervisions per week (one more than our scientists, so realistically they have nothing to complain about). "
Cambridge NatScis have four supervisions a week in first year, three in second year and then one a week in third year so that you can spend more time in the lab.
Also, unless Durham NatScis go to Saturday lectures you can fuck off insinuating that Durham NatScis do more work.
How rude and somewhat stuck up. Yes Cambridge and Oxford are very good universities, but then so are Durham, Bristol, UCL and so on. Perhaps you should consider yourself privileged that you managed to gain a place at Oxbridge, but at the same time acknowledge that there are some exceedingly bright individuals at Durham and other top universities, including those that chose not to apply to Oxbridge (or dare I say it, turned down the odd place). People should be less complacent of where they are studying, and less eager to slate off others – let alone add to the conception that some Oxbridge students consider themselves elitist or better than others. For supposedly intelligent people, there are some very silly comments being made (e.g. it's too hilly to ride a bike there). Hopefully it is just a naive minority that hold such preconceived views.
it is very hilly
Fuck it.
Why don't we just call it KBEGYIDOxbirdge, after Kent, Bristol, Edinburgh, Glasgow, York, Imperial, Durham, Oxford and Cambridge. I suspect those Universities also fit the criteria that Taverner suggests. But why stop there? There's the University of Cape Town and who could forget the Rheinisch-Westfälische Technische Hochschule Aachen?
Amazingly, no-one has mentioned the fact that the 'Oxbridge' moniker and the pairing of the two universities has absolutely nothing to do with their merits or similarities or some sort of rational modern decision, but simply because of their historical predating of other English universities as serious centres of higher learning. The term is relatively new – Thackeray coined it in 1849 – but even then Oxbridge's history granted them a reputation for being in an entirely different category to other universities. And the thought behind the name had existed as long as the two universities.
Thackeray also coined the other portmanteau 'Camford', but unfortunately it didn't catch on. Seems like that one had its priorities better sorted.
haha lol
1. Doxbridge as a term was coined for the annual "comedy match" between the Oxford Revue, the Durham Revue and Footlights. It's a joke, not some conspiracy to pretend Durham is an ancient university.
2. Reanne MacKenzie is wrong on some facts about Durham – "There are no supervisions, no weekly essays, and no (frequent) all-nighters in the library." Wrong on all three counts, though the supervisions are called tutorials as in Oxford. It didn't have a reading week in my day, but perhaps it does now, I don't know – no idea what the implied problem is anyway.
3. This article is so absurd (both halves of it) that I really hope no one takes it seriously in any way. The truth is that all three universities are excellent, and anyone should be proud to study at any of them. Durham was founded on the Oxford model and has more in common with Oxford and Cambridge than most other universities – both in the superficial matters (pretty old buildings, gowns, etc) and in academic rigour, teaching style, and research clout. It's also always highly ranked, sometimes as high as third. But it can't (and doesn't pretend to) match Oxford and Cambridge in some respects, including age and endowment.
well there's only one thing i have to say about this
Floppy Ball-bag
I applied to Cambridge, Imperial, UCL, Harvard and Durham
Guess which one offered me a place without interview?
Should have gone to Harvard…
It seems quite strange that some people seem so protective of their university that they have to start insulting other peoples', often in an extremely crude and non-analytical manner…
As for tutorials, contact hours etc. Yes, Durham does unfortunately lag behind, the main reason being the fact that it doesn't have the endowment, or the specific government subsidy for such a system. As a result, less money means less staff etc, and as a result unfortunately less contact hours. That being said, many departments do make up for it, and it seems quite strange that the response to departments like History and English consistently beating one or both of Oxbridge is "well we're still better."
Unfortunately, at least some of the stereotypes of Durham students are true. It is also true that there is a large subset of students who either didn't want to go to Oxbridge, or were unfortunate enough to simply do badly in their interview at the time. It seems quite unfair to lump all Durham students together as 'stupid,' especially when in many activities that I've seen which emphasise the intellectual (such as Debating), Durham is likely to beat Cambridge, and has consistently outperformed them all year.
Last, it is also quite telling that if one reads Charlie Taverner's piece, he concedes that academically most of Durham cannot compete, but merely illustrates that there are commonalities which justify the use of 'Doxbridge' as a description of a group of universities alongside the use of 'Oxbridge' to denote the specific academic superiority of those institutions. So perhaps everyone so eager to call Durham students stupid should notice that it wouldn't be too relevant to his points.
*fewer contact hours.
It was nice to see that Durham University RFC crush the Cambridge Blues 44-22 on the weekend!
You do realize that after their respective varsity matches, Oxbridge sports teams piss it up?
do you realise Durham are 31 games unbeaten #showmethemoneyjerry
Reanne you are a first year historian – if you have to do "(frequent) all nighters in the library" I suggest you might be suited to a less academically rigorous institution.
Reanne, quite the snob since you started climbing the social ladder. A true rags to riches story; now you're qualified to comment about the rest of the university educations and students in the country. We salute you!
Reanne you would blend into insignificance at Durham. You probably do at Cambridge, hence your controversial article seeking some attention. Your looks are mediocre, your intelligence is probably mediocre (using the undoubtable reputation of your institution as a platform to be vocal, readers assuming you are a fair reflection of Cambridge's academic excellence) and from speaking to you at a party in Cam your chat is like a 14 year old girl whose parents have always told her she's the best. But you probably don't remember me. You can't fight those genes Reanne. Cream Floats. LIP
'Durham is Australia. We send them our rejects, and they do their best to follow our example'
Does anyone care how racist this post is? Get off your imperialist high horse!
The prestigious educational institution of Northumbria University (Formally Newcastle Polytechnic) has a 24hr Library, a boat race and varsity sports tournament with their nearest rivals (Newcastle) and formals (wearing a shirt on a night out counts doesn't it?). The students also regularly pull all nighters, which is due to the incredible work load and not because of a prevailing attitude of 'it'll be fine to just leave it till the last minute', that rumour was started by bitter arch-rivals Newcastle.
Therefore, owing to the similarities between Northumbria, Oxford and Cambridge I propose Noxbridge, to tie the true greatest university in with its slightly lesser brethren.